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Using NV (Studio Plugin) different settings for every scene

 
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Smitty



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:53 am    Post subject: Using NV (Studio Plugin) different settings for every scene Reply with quote

After trying out NV plugin (demo) for VirtualDub today I (finally) bought Home version for Pinncale Studio.
I've tried the plugin on a part of an old homemade VHS (holiday). After several attempts I managed to build a 91% (!) noise profile. Together with this, changing a little the temporal filter, adaptive filtration e checking the high quality option this old "poor" and sometimes very noisy VHS registration became much better ! "unfortunately" not all the scenes are the same. There are scenes of mountains, the sea, light scenes, dark scenes etc etc. The overall result is quite good, but some scenes with plants, green of the mountains sometimes are not so "clear" and "real". Also the original was not that good in those scenes but a little more realistic (but ofcourse also with a lot of noise). Ofcourse I also lost some quality because the VHS footage years ago was created fm (analog) video camera to VHS cassette. And lately fm VHS casette recorded onto DVD recorder and then transferred to PC (MPEG-2). So you can imagine the quality.
Anyway...with this source material ofcourse you cannot do miracles but I've seen NV can clean it up VERY VERY NICE.
Using it in VirtualDub I only could build 1 noise profile and for that ofcourse I used just 1 frame for building it (even if it was really a good profile of 91%). But having several really different scenes in the same footage maybe is not good for the same profile. Or maybe I'm wrong ?
Maybe when I will use the NV plugin now for Pinnacle Studio it's better to build a different noise profiles for scenes that are very different fm eachother ?? I mean scenes by daylight on the beach having 1 profile, scenes in restaurants in the evening another, scenes (outside) by night another and so on ??
For sure it will take a lot of time to build several profiles for several scenes (and especially when you have a footage of almost an hour or more), but maybe the final results will be more satisfying in this way than if you only use 1 noise profile for the whole movie ?
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer is of course yes, it does make sense to build separate profiles for different clips/scenes. As long as the host application allows that, go for it.
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Smitty



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me it's still a mystery what kind of information is saved in such a profile. But well...anyway...I will try to start using it now in Pinnacle Studio.
I understand now it's better to build separate profiles for different clips/scenes.
Let's say I have on the timeline 45 minutes of footage with several scenes.
Most of them are "separated / split" automatically by Studio (when you insert the AVI file for the first time). Manually I make some other splits to separate some scenes one fm antoher. OK..now I will have all these scenes on my timeline.
My questions now are:
1) For every scene I have to SAVE the builded noise profile ?
2) Or will the profile automatically be saved within every scene scene ?
3) If not then you will have many and many noise profiles saved on PC for just one Studio project and that doesn't seem very handy and logical .



NVTeam wrote:
The answer is of course yes, it does make sense to build separate profiles for different clips/scenes. As long as the host application allows that, go for it.
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NVTeam



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Yes, more or less. If you want to have separate profile for every scene then you have to manually add NV to this scene (assuming it is separated using a split) and prepare noise profile / adjust the noise filter settings. If you want to use just one instance of NV for the whole clip, do not split the clip. Once it is split, you have to separately add a separate instance of NV to each segment of the clip.

2. Before anything can be saved, you have to add NV to each segment and configure it (prepare a profile and adjust the filter settings). Once you complete adding NV to a segment, its settings are automatically saved in the project for this segment.

3. There will be many noise profiles if you have many scenes and add/configure many instances of NV, one in each of those scenes. This may be not very handy (having many scenes is already not handy) but it is certainly logical: if you want to apply different filtration to different scenes then you have to separately configure the filtration settings in each of the scenes.

Vlad
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Smitty



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx for such a quick reply.
I have opened a project in Studio (same footage as I used for NV with virtualdub) and indeed started with applying NV on almost every scene (at least the scenes that are completely different. Unfortunately there are some scenes at the start with some kind of still images that whatever I try I cannot get more than a 50-60% noise profile. It's not that important, because there just some foto's at the start of the footage and also with Virtualdub the quality became not the great (but fortunately it's just a few minutes). Later on I will apply NV on the "real" scenes. For sure there will be scenes where I can and will build a high and good noise profile and some maybe not. I will test and let you know.

What I cannot understand so good is:
In Virtualdub I used a good frame to build a high noise profile of 91%. But this was used for the whole footage.
When I build several profiles in Studio for sure I will not get them all at 91%.
So the 91% profile in Virtualdub I think will not work perfect on all the different scenes in the footage I think. But I cannot understand what NV will do with a 91% profile build in 1 scene but used in a complete different scene (altough it's in the same footage). Maybe that's why some scenes (like green in mountains etc) will show not that good ??
I mean if this 91% profiles would work OK for the whole footage it would not very logical to build several profiles (with maybe much lower quality) in Studio not ?

As you can see I still have to learn a lot.

The second step after this will be learning a little (manually) finetuning, I think......
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Quality indicator shows how good/accurate the profile itself is. Like how good is a suit made by a tailor. A suit may be good (made of good material, properly stitched, without defects, etc., in a word, of high quality) in itself, but it is not necessarily good for everyone - some people may require a smaller size, some people may need a larger size, and for some people will fit into this suit just right. The same goes with profiles and clips: clips/scenes are people, profiles are suits. Profile may be good (high quality) but it does not necessarily match all clips, perhaps only one or two that have similar properties. Therefore, you have to prepare several separate profiles (suits) that would match different clips (people). In this way, all these clips (people) will look good.

Hope this helps,
Vlad
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Smitty



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vlad,
The way you have explained the things first of all are VERY original and second they make very clear what I've asked for. I couldn't think of a better (and original) explanation.

I'll keep you informed about my results and (hopefully) progression !
For sure I have to study a lot with the plugin. As I told I also have to learn how to manually fine tune.
For example I saw (if I'm correct) in the profile viewer for example :
Profile Quality 60% and somewhere (unfortunately I'm not behind my own computer now so I cannot check it) else right near the bottom something like 73% after finetuning. What does that mean ?? I didn't (at least I can't remember) do any finetuning. Or does it mean you can achive a result near 73% after good finetuning ?? And if that's correct how do I do that ?

If you think I am asking too much of yr time to explain me all these things pls let me know. And I will not ask "too much" again.

Anyway...thanks for all the help, explanations etc you have given me untill now
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fine-tuning is a part of profiling process. Auto Profile does it as well, but you can additionally manually fine-tune and sometimes that can make the profile better. Regarding the procedure, please see the user guide, pages 20-25. You will find a description of the profiling tools available in Advanced mode (menu Tools > Advanced mode) that you can use to do manual fine-tuning.

Thank you,
Vlad
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Smitty



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Vlad !

I will study it !

I will keep you informed about my progressions.

And for now...I just wanted to let you know....that I'm glad I have spent some money to buy this wonderful tool ! And when I have the opportunity (on some forum etc) for sure I will make some pubblicity for this tool !!!!
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Smitty



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1)
I have tried now to apply NV on some separate scenes/clips within the footage. Some profiles are not too bad. Some I managed to have a 70-80% profile. But it's a little "frustrating" to have also several scenes where I cannot have a profile above 50-60%.
With VirtualDub is was so "happy" to find a good frame to build a 91% noise profile. But ofcourse as said (and explained also by you !) that will not always suit for the whole footage !
But on the other hand I'm a "little sad" to have these clips with a 50-60% noise profile. Even with finetuning and trying different frames within the scene I cannot have a higher profile. Probably I have to live with that, not ?
Some of the scenes are maybe too small to find a good area within a good frame to build a good profile. Maybe with these scenes I just "copy" a better profile of a scene just before this scene. In some cases in the scene before I have build a profile around 70-80%. The scene after not better than 50-60% but sometimes this scenes doesn't differ too much than the one before, but it's maybe just too small to find a good frame for building a good profile. What do you think of that ? In this cases just copy the profile fm the scene before ??

Further I want to say (even when not finding / creating perfect profiles for all the scenes) that it's nice that in Studio it's easier to build several profiles instead of building one like in VirtualDub.

2)
The only thing I liked more in VirtualDub was having the split window so I could see very good how the scene was before and how after using NV. This would be nice also having in Studio, but I don't think that will be possible not ?
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NVTeam



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Most important is too check the final filtration result, having a high quality of the profile is less important. It may be possible to get good filtration results with lower quality profile so check the actual filtration results as the main indicator of success.

2) Yes, VirtualDub offers somewhat more convenient preview tools. You may want to ask the Studio developers to address this aspect of their product and make it better.

Vlad
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Smitty



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.....I just finished watching my first complete result of the use of NV (for Studio). A whole footage of 45 minutes. As you suggested I made almost for every scene (and I can tell you they were a lot !) a noise profile. It took me a long long time finishing all the profiles. But it was worth it !!!

Tonight I was sitting in front of my 37' flat TV watching (finally) the result and I was amazed. It was a long time ago that I was so excited about video editing and watching the result of my "hard" work. Sometimes I stood up to go a little nearer the TV to see where the noise was. Because I couldn't believe my eyes. In so many (and I mean so MANY) scenes the noise was almost completely gone and it also seemed the picture was much more clear and nice to watch at. Ofcourse there were still some scenes who could have done a little better. But the overall result was really satisfying !!
Only some scenes with a lot of different kind of green (like in the woods with different kind of green plants, trees, flowers etc) where not always good realistic. For those scenes I remember also it was difficult to find good frames for building a noise profile. And at the moment I really don't know how to build them for those scenes. But fortunately there were not too many of these kind of scenes. So for the moment I'm REALLY REALLY SATISFIED about the fact I bought the Neat Video plugin !!
Thx again guys for this great tool.
Tomorrow I will start with "cleaning" my 2nd VHS source. For sure it will take a long time again (because it's a footage of almost 1 hour), but I won't care about it.....knowing in advance I can have again a very good result.

A question:
Can you also use only the temporal filter (together with the adaptive filtration) option ?? I mean without even building a noise profile ??

If YES.....what result will that give and in what circumstances you maybe can use only this option (without using the noise profile and the rest of the configuration) ?
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Lugarimo



Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A question:
Can you also use only the temporal filter (together with the adaptive filtration) option ?? I mean without even building a noise profile ??


You could build a noise profile (any profile) and set the (I forget the name) to 0 instead of the default 60, or something low like 5 or 10.

Quote:
If YES.....what result will that give and in what circumstances you maybe can use only this option (without using the noise profile and the rest of the configuration) ?


The noise will be there but it won't move. It's good to use if you fear blurring detail when removing noise.
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NVTeam



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you can just set the noise reduction amounts to 0% in the intra-frame filter, that will disable that filter. This may be useful if the temporal filtration alone produces good enough results, so that additional intra-frame filtration is not really required.

Vlad
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Smitty



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this moment I'm doing a small test with the virtualdub (demo) plugin, because with his preview window I can have quickly a good idea what's happening. I did what you wrote (setting to 0% in the intra frame-filter). And set the temporal filter : radius to 5 frames and threshold to + 15% and I see that also this is already giving a nice result.
Is radius to 5 frames maybe too high as a setting ??

I shall try these settings in the scenes (in my post before this one) with a lot of different kind of green (plants, trees etc.). Maybe the result for these scenes are more realistic and les blurred.


NVTeam wrote:
Yes, you can just set the noise reduction amounts to 0% in the intra-frame filter, that will disable that filter. This may be useful if the temporal filtration alone produces good enough results, so that additional intra-frame filtration is not really required.

Vlad
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