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Re-rendering constantly in FCPX
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geko



Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re-rendering constantly in FCPX Reply with quote

Neat Video is nice, but the render times, even with an 8 CPU MacPro are horribly slow. However, if one has to live with that, there is another problem which ruins it completely - the constant re-render. Even if a clip is rendered on the timeline, after every adjustment Neat Video re-renders the whole clip. This does not happen with any other applied effect. Even when you only trim the clip it starts to re-render. Adding transitions, or anything else starts a re-render again. Why is this so? Am I missing something? With these slow render times this makes Neat Video totally unusable.
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 2237

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please note that it is not Neat Video who decides to start re-rendering. It is always FCPX who makes such a decision. Neat Video has no say in that decision.

Regarding the render speed, I recommend to try using Optimize in Neat Video to make sure it uses the available computation resources in the most efficient way.

On modern machines, Neat Video can process up to 10-15-20 frames (fullHD) per second. If you take into account the FCPX overhead, the speed of the overall FCPX render can be 5-10 fps. Which means it should take about 2.5-5 min to render a 1 min clip. Is that horribly slow?

Vlad
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geko



Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NVTeam wrote:
Please note that it is not Neat Video who decides to start re-rendering. It is always FCPX who makes such a decision. Neat Video has no say in that decision.

Regarding the render speed, I recommend to try using Optimize in Neat Video to make sure it uses the available computation resources in the most efficient way.

On modern machines, Neat Video can process up to 10-15-20 frames (fullHD) per second. If you take into account the FCPX overhead, the speed of the overall FCPX render can be 5-10 fps. Which means it should take about 2.5-5 min to render a 1 min clip. Is that horribly slow?

Vlad


Thanks Vlad, but this means nothing actually. Regardless which application decides to do the re-render, the fact is that only Neat Video is re-rendering from the numerous effects routinely used in our studio. It is really unusable, and I just found another thread about this same problem from more than 2 years ago (HERE), and it seems this has not been resolved. The guy says that he spoke with you about this extensively back then.

As for speed, we can get up to 12fps NV render, and it has been optimized. But this is not the issue, the issue is that in a typical short project, the clips with NV applied render 40-50 times, over and over again, after every change to the timeline, and with each render taking minutes everything gets unmanageable. If it was once, as it is supposed to do, anyone can live with it regardless of the speed. However, I repeat, the effect re-renders the clip constantly. Or FCPX re renders it constantly, doesn't matter, but it happens only with Neat Video clips and with no other plugin or effect. Please take this seriously, it is really an issue, I am not trying to be difficult, the plugin is actually very useful but this is clearly a bug.
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 2237

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is FCPX who makes that decision then the plug-in cannot do much about it and the question should be addressed to Apple, since only they can change the way FCPX itself works. There is nothing we can do but to address the same question to Apple too. I suggest we do that together, you as their user and we as a developer.

Regarding re-rendering, it is a logical continuation of that same problem of FCPX itself. Unlike other editing applications, it automatically renders and re-renders so often and so much that FCPX itself becomes unresponsive as soon as any heavy effect like Neat Video is involved. The only way to avoid that I am aware of is to disable background rendering in FCPX and to start renders manually, when that is actually needed. Just like that is done in other editing applications. I disabled background rendering and skimming as soon as I installed FCPX on my MBP because otherwise its GUI is unusable.

Please note that other editing applications (for example, Premiere Pro, After Effects, Vegas, Nuke, Edius, Media Composer, etc.) do not suffer from the same problem.

Vlad
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geko



Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NVTeam wrote:
If it is FCPX who makes that decision then the plug-in cannot do much about it and the question should be addressed to Apple, since only they can change the way FCPX itself works. There is nothing we can do but to address the same question to Apple too. I suggest we do that together, you as their user and we as a developer.

Regarding re-rendering, it is a logical continuation of that same problem of FCPX itself. Unlike other editing applications, it automatically renders and re-renders so often and so much that FCPX itself becomes unresponsive as soon as any heavy effect like Neat Video is involved. The only way to avoid that I am aware of is to disable background rendering in FCPX and to start renders manually, when that is actually needed. Just like that is done in other editing applications. I disabled background rendering and skimming as soon as I installed FCPX on my MBP because otherwise its GUI is unusable.

Please note that other editing applications (for example, Premiere Pro, After Effects, Vegas, Nuke, Edius, Media Composer, etc.) do not suffer from the same problem.

Vlad


Thanks for the reply, but I do not understand something. You are clearly denying that this is Neat's Video fault, but this behavior happens only with NV and with no other effect or plugin. I am writing you from an editing studio. We have Mac Pro machines, FCPX's background render is never a problem, the problem comes only when NV is involved. There is clearly something within the plugin which triggers this behavior. But I understand we will be getting nowhere with this, since this is such and old issue and no one seems to want to resolve it. The fact that you have disabled a function from your application will not help you resolve the issue. Suggesting that we use another NLE is also very strange. You have chosen to produce NV for FCPX, the least you can do is to acknowledge an issue which makes the plugin unusable with this application. I don't see how it can be Apple's fault a problem which happens only with one 3-rd party plugin, but even if it is you should resolve it with them. Obviously someone has discussed this with you in details almost 3 years ago... why haven't you done anything? FCPX DOES NOT do this with anything else but NV. This has been verified here on 3 different machines and across two different versions of FCPX and it is consistent. If this was Apple's fault it would affect other plugins, but it des not.
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 2237

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geko wrote:
Suggesting that we use another NLE is also very strange.

It was not a suggestion. It was an example or reasoning similar to what you used: if something bad happens only when X is involved then X must be responsible

If you use this reasoning to "prove" a bug in NV then the same reasoning can also "prove" a bug in FCPX. Which of these proofs is right then?


Regarding FCPX and its issues, please see an incomplete list of problems of FCPX that we have discovered and reported to Apple over the years. See how many problems there are related to FCPX as compared with other applications. Some of those problems have not been fixed by Apple for months and even years. Some are still unfixed.

We have not added the problem you are observing to that list yet because (1) it is not that frequently reported and observed (especially when the workflow is organized in a way allowing to avoid typical FCPX bottlenecks), (2) it is not clear if it is a bug in FCPX or a (poor) design decision and (3) there have been many much more pressing problems in FCPX that we tried to convince Apple to fix (some of them are still unfixed).

We will submit a formal bug report to Apple about that to get their official opinion. Then we will update the list of known problems and we all will know why FCPX works like that. You already know my (educated guess) option.

Vlad
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geko



Joined: 29 Jul 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, thanks anyway. Let's hope something productive comes out of this rather tense discussion. I wish you and NV all the best!
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 2237

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. We have consulted with Apple developers regarding this issue. Based on their input, it looks like the problem is caused by specific design limitations of FCPX itself. In some cases, it just has to re-render. In some cases, it doesn't know for sure so it does that anyway, just in case.

2. We have submitted our suggestions for improvements to Apple. I hope they can improve that aspect of FCPX so it wouldn't trigger re-rendering unless really necessary. I am afraid (knowing Apple) that any positive development in this area will take quite a bit of time.

3. We have added a description of the problem in the known issues page:
Quote:
FCP X may decide to re-render a clip where a video effect is applied. When that happens with a clip where Neat Video is used, re-rendering may take a considerable time (because Neat Video is very computation intensive). FCP X may trigger re-rendering when a transition is added to a clip, when another effect is added to the clip, when the clip is cut, etc. In many cases, such re-rendering is unnecessary but it cannot be avoided because of the design limitation of FCP X itself. To avoid wasting time on re-rendering, we recommend to disable background rendering and to trigger render manually.

Thank you,
Vlad
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JDW



Joined: 28 Sep 2015
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="NVTeam"]3. We have added a description of the problem in the known issues page:
Quote:
...we recommend to disable background rendering and to trigger render manually.

I still am using a very old March 2009 3.06GHz iMac (8GB RAM, GeForce GT 130) with FCPX and Neat Video v4, and I must say that the speed is not helped at all by disabling background render. Not at all. In fact, I cannot even play video in FCPX with Neat Video applied to a clip.

More specifically, I have a 15 minute clip with Neat Video applied, Radius 5. Since I cannot play video at all, even using Proxy, I tried to Share a 720p version of the clip, just so I could see what my edits look like. After 60 hours of continuous chugging away, FCPX showed me that it was only at 3%. So it would take 65 days or so to complete at that rate! Of course, I had duplicated my clip 3 times so as to mask sections and apply localized color correction and sharpening, but it's clear I need a new computer to make HD video editing usable with Neat Video.

I read something about there being a new Neat Video Disable feature in version 4, somewhere in the menus, but I've not tried that yet. What I am doing now is generating a Master file one a single 15 minute clip with no other effects applied. After 24 hours, FCPX is at 23%. My thinking is to import that completed Master file (ProRes 422) and then use that in my editing, which means I won't need other instances of Neat Video again on that clip, and editing should then go back to normal.

Also, I posted about this in another thread today, but perhaps I'll mention it here too. What Mac (CPU, GPU, exact clock speeds, RAM, etc) is the fastest Mac currently to be used with Neat Video v4 and FCPX 10.2? There is insufficient info in the NeatBench database to determine that. Since I am in the market for a new Mac, I'd like to know.

Thanks.
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JDW wrote:
I must say that the speed is not helped at all by disabling background render.

That adjustment is not supposed to improve the processing speed itself, but that can help to avoid additional waste of processing power by FCPX's multiple re-rendering and preview updates during skimming.

JDW wrote:
In fact, I cannot even play video in FCPX with Neat Video applied to a clip.

That is almost always the case when the clip is not yet fully rendered by FCPX. Because the computer cannot apply Neat Video filtration in real time (hardware is not fast enough to do that), it is necessary to render the clip first and only then to play it back at full speed. Can you play the video after rendering?

JDW wrote:
More specifically, I have a 15 minute clip with Neat Video applied, Radius 5. Since I cannot play video at all, even using Proxy, I tried to Share a 720p version of the clip, just so I could see what my edits look like. After 60 hours of continuous chugging away, FCPX showed me that it was only at 3%. So it would take 65 days or so to complete at that rate!

That sounds too slow. Your computer should be able to do the job faster.

Please run the Optimize tool in Neat Video Preferences and post its results here. We will check if the speeds measured by Optimize are adequate for that hardware and for that frame size.

I also recommend to use a shorter clip for testing, at least in the beginning, just to establish the optimal workflow first.

JDW wrote:
I read something about there being a new Neat Video Disable feature in version 4, somewhere in the menus, but I've not tried that yet. What I am doing now is generating a Master file one a single 15 minute clip with no other effects applied. After 24 hours, FCPX is at 23%. My thinking is to import that completed Master file (ProRes 422) and then use that in my editing, which means I won't need other instances of Neat Video again on that clip, and editing should then go back to normal.

That is generally a good idea in circumstances of low speed of rendering. I just recommend to check if that speed is really adequate first. Perhaps not computing resources have been enabled yet. Please run Optimize as I suggested above.

JDW wrote:
Also, I posted about this in another thread today, but perhaps I'll mention it here too. What Mac (CPU, GPU, exact clock speeds, RAM, etc) is the fastest Mac currently to be used with Neat Video v4 and FCPX 10.2?
The fastest Macs today are probably the new MacPro with fast dual Xeons and with D700 GPUs.

Vlad
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JDW



Joined: 28 Sep 2015
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NVTeam wrote:
JDW wrote:
More specifically, I have a 15 minute clip with Neat Video applied, Radius 5. Since I cannot play video at all, even using Proxy, I tried to Share a 720p version of the clip, just so I could see what my edits look like. After 60 hours of continuous chugging away, FCPX showed me that it was only at 3%. So it would take 65 days or so to complete at that rate!

That sounds too slow. Your computer should be able to do the job faster.
Please run the Optimize tool in Neat Video Preferences and post its results here.

I will do that once my computer finishes processing. It has been running non-stop for the last 48 hours and is 45% complete, so I don't want to throw away that processing by stopping the Master file export. When finished, I will do ask you suggest and post back here.

NVTeam wrote:
JDW wrote:
Also, I posted about this in another thread today, but perhaps I'll mention it here too. What Mac (CPU, GPU, exact clock speeds, RAM, etc) is the fastest Mac currently to be used with Neat Video v4 and FCPX 10.2?

The fastest Macs today are probably the new MacPro with fast dual Xeons and with D700 GPUs.

Unfortunately, no one with a D700 configuration has posted any benchmarks to the NeatBench database. I'd love to see how an 8-core Mac Pro with dual D700's fairs against an iMac. But realistically, my budget would only warrant a maxed out 27" iMac, and I hope to purchase one once the upcoming SkyLake version comes out. That machine will have an updated video card too. The Mac Pro 8-core would be perfect, but it's just too expensive once a decent monitor is included and RAM and Flash HD are factored in. On top of that, the Xenons are not new tech either. I wonder win Apple will update the Mac Pro.

Anyway, I will report back here in a couple days when the processing of my 15min. clip is complete.

Thank you very much for your detailed and helpful reply, Vlad. I greatly appreciate it!
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JDW



Joined: 28 Sep 2015
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vlad, my 3.06GHz DuoCore iMac (March 2009) at the office just finished denoting a 15min. clip, having taken 4.5 days of non-stop running to do it. From within the Preferences (in FCPX) I choose Performance > Optimize Settings... and got the following results:

Frame Size: 1920x1080 progressive
Bitdepth: 32 bits per channel
Quality Mode: High
Mix with Original: Disabled
Temporal Filter: Enabled
Radius: 5 frames
Dust and Scratches: Disabled
Slow Shutter: Disabled
Spatial Filter: Enabled
Frequencies: High, Mid, Low
Artifact Removal: Enabled
Edge Smoothing: Disabled
Sharpening: Disabled
Neat Video 4.0.9 Pro plug-in for Final Cut

Detecting the best combination of performance settings:
running the test data set on up to 2 CPU cores

1 core: 0.153 frames/sec
2 cores: 0.272 frames/sec

Best combination: 2 cores



So is NeatVideo v4 optimized for all the latest video cards in the latest Macs? And do you have to modify NeatVideo when new Macs come out to make NeatVideo compatible? For example, if a new Retina iMac comes out with M395X GPU, would NeatVideo take full advantage of it or would you need to modify NeatVideo first?

Thanks.
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see you switched Neat Video filters to High quality mode, which made the processing significantly slower. You may want to return to the Normal quality mode to compare the speeds. It may be several times faster in that mode.

Neat Video v4 can use the GPUs listed in this page. When a new and not compatible GPU is released by hardware manufacturers, we update Neat Video to add the necessary support (whenever possible and reasonable). That may be required for M395X too. I do not expect any partucular troubles with that.

Vlad
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TheTrickster



Joined: 10 May 2014
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has there been any updates to this issue with the recent (and not so recent) updates to FCPX?

I've stopped using NeatVideo as it made editing completely unbearable. Which is a shame as it rocks.

I tried applying NeatVideo to individual clips before adding them to a timeline, but even then, if I trim or crop a clip within the timeline it decides to go and rerender the clip.
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NVTeam



Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We did not notice any changes from the side of FCPX.

I would disable the filter for the time of editing.

Vlad
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